Thank you for having me yeah you and i met last year in austin, asked many of my guests. By the way i met a lot of people in that trip. I guess in that event it was in austin texas. We were there for the fully charged live event uh, which in which we were talking all kinds of electric cars, centric topics right and you were there uh and you are from mexico you're from yeah, i'm from guadalajara, guadalajara, a town that i don't know.

I i wan na, i need to go visit. You need to come and visit i'll host you. Yes, we need to go to where my honor - and i was talking to you about the fact that your city has a new fleet of uh electric uh horseless carriages at this point. What do you guys call them? Calendria, okay and i had a guess.

I don't think we've aired that episode yet um, but i think it's gon na air pretty soon uh and it was pretty interesting because i never thought about it and i'm like oh okay, that's pretty cool like yeah. This should be electric. Why not right! It's like! I know you, i know the fact that you're saying - and he was talking about that - the fact that people were like they were up playing the the fact that maybe like animal cruelty or whatever you know. I know there is some truth to that, because you know city streets shouldn't they're, not particularly set for animals right, like i know horses can you know well the same thing.

Horses are breathing all that bad air that we're all breathing right. Uh then they're kind of chaotic and stuff - and i know he talked about like the same thing happening in new york city. But in new york city the activists didn't win, and maybe it's the the fact that they're, a lot of those characters are inside of the park and so they're kind of shielded from all the chaos of the city. So maybe that's why? But you know it's it's like any project if it has political backing, it'll get through yeah man in this case uh.

The local municipal government really wanted this to happen, so it was going to happen regardless, so, whether it's good for anyone or not we're making this thing happen yeah, but it's interesting yeah. Some of the things we talked about when we were in austin is uh the whole. You know we, we all ev enthusiasts tech enthusiasts. We all consume global media and there's very little news to what's happening in mexico and most of southern southern america in terms of ev, ev adoption and all these things, and for us that are in it.

We we want to share. We want to share, and we also want to be part of that global community. It's somewhat not as interesting in some aspects and very interesting in others, and that's basically what we wanted to to share with you guys today, um. We, we were very excited to to to see what the next couple of years has in store for us.

Uh mexico, like in many other things where, where one works, is someone it's somewhat behind we're like three four years behind we're like where the us was around 2014 in terms of of what people are thinking about the product, what government is doing about the product um And the cool thing is like in many other things that permeate to other countries that are not main markets. Is that we get to learn from you guys, we get to see what worked, what didn't work, what what came out as a a standard, a business practice, a business model and try to cut all that fat and just build a lean product, because we have less Capital, so we can't afford to make as many mistakes yeah so maybe being behind it's it's at least uh advantages right in some aspects because you're you don't have to make the same mistakes we we're doing. Hopefully, that's the idea, yeah, that's the idea, and basically i i our group, our house group, so we develop we develop, implement and maintain ev solutions for a variety of customers of customers, uh the largest one being tesla we're not their only we're not their only contractor. We're one of several here in mexico, a handful, but through that partnership and other partnerships and other customer experiences, we've had it's been very interesting.

People are surprised that you can. You can drive your tesla from mexico city all the way to texas. We have superchargers along the whole route and the the supercharger is expanding uh continuously as a ev driver. It's it's very, very exciting because i always tell people like i mean this is possible in mexico in a tesla.

Imagine other brands are are five years behind tesla. In emerging markets, so tesla really really is, is opening up uh it's it's. The leader is yeah they're breaking ground from for many of us, and the interesting thing is now now that other brands are getting into the game in a more serious manner. They get.

They get to other markets and they go the question they have is: how did tesla do it in this country and and and that becomes your your calling card of sorts? It's not it's not not as complicated as it seems it's more of a uh having projects that are make sense that are done right and sometimes mediating what what some people called mexico. No, some people call mexico organized uh, organized chaos, chaos yeah, but i mean it seems. The u.s is very much the same politically speaking, anyways right uh, it's in the last years. It's like yeah.

We used to think mexico was a real mess down there, but look at us like jesus, you know, but i think uh i yeah. I think it's. I think you guys are moving nice along right like the fact that yeah you have superchargers and you have teslas. Is it still kind of rare to see a tesla over there or now they're they're? Starting to i know, there's certain markets right, like you're in one of these affluent cities right and uh, so there's probably so yeah the three largest three largest cities, which would be mexico city being number one, monterrey being second and guadalajara.

Being third, you start to see at least one or two a day, which is a lot for our market. I'd estimate. This is not an official number. I just the top of my head there's around 3 000 mexican teslas mexican mexican vin teslas um circulating in mexico, and we we are the one of the markets where, where american brands and models get to to cohabitate with european, make and models like, we have all The european brands we have renault, we have pujol, we have citroen, we have all the asian market brands um and they and their european version of cars so sometimes you're at a stoplight and you'll.

Have this enormous american pickup. Next, to this little itty, tiny little b, uh, have you seen the renault twizy? It's a two-seater. One goes in the front, one one goes in the back electric car, oh wow um. So you get all these type of weird situations and it's fun.

The one place where it becomes a chaos is in charging standards, so uh as a as a in mexico, what are called noms or norma official mexicana, it's you know, kind of like uh, fcc or ieee of sorts. You know they they they're, like this government body. I think i triple a is in government there's this government body that goes, you know these are standards and and units and best practices for, let's say, electric electricity or water. Whatever um within mexico there's been no defined standard in terms of of what charging standard and plug you're supposed to have, there is some standards around how you should like install a charger, nothing revolutionary, i mean just for for electrical purposes.

Mexico is pretty much the same as the us just a more lenient in some stuff. You guys are 60 hertz, now right or yeah, so 60 hertz and mostly 110 outlets for regular use, but um, two-phase and three-phase, is starting to become common in houses um. So really so, yeah wow - that's not happening here. I think it's! It's all industrial here.

It's only like residential is all single phase. Split face, right, yeah, yeah, yeah and and part of it three-phase is still very rare. Uh dual face or or bifasico is, is more common for medium, medium homes, um and still still, you find areas where there's a lot of like phase 110 services, and when that happens, it's it's a bit of a situation yeah because you're you maxed out right. What is the max that you can do like 100 amps, the max power draw for for us in 110? Single phase is it's like 40 amps, oh wow, okay, yeah! So that's yeah, that's, which is like five five kilo.

Five point something kilo, it's like to give people perspective. That's about a large uh. You know a large home ac unit. My ac units, i think, draws about five kilowatts.

So that's it you're maxed out there. You can't do if you have a large house and you have that service yeah. You would be able to run your ac, but you won't be able to run your microwave while you're doing both you have to turn it off. You know yeah and it becomes.

I mean all all all i guess you could call it procedure, or all rules and and regulations are a product of living style right so in the u.s condition in your space, either it to be warm or hot or something is very common in mexico. For the most part, most months, it's really optional - i mean um and and thus our houses are actually they're built with solid materials they're not as properly insulated, uh, central air and things like that are not common here when you do have air like what i have Here in my office, it's a mini split unit, it's something very common in europe and very, very rare in the us yeah they're, starting to happen. That's kind of the new generation and we skip because we've been using our traditional central air units for so long. But yeah exactly yeah, you guys are skipping that whole super inefficient way of you know uh, getting air or or accommodating our temperature inside buildings and stuff.

So you're going to the next generation of split air. Those are very efficient. Those will run at 110 all day and you can yeah you can do 110 or 220. um, but well going back to my original.

My original charging standards what's happening now. It's we're starting to see a variety of connectors when you go to public locations, especially with level 2 charging. So you go to a mall and it's one of the only locations i know of where you'll find a gbt chinese standard, the j1772, which is the regular north american standard and the tesla north america connector all in the same space, wow yeah and chinese chinese brands. Several of them have you know, jack, biak, um and a couple others they they have dealers just as big as any other major american wait.

So both of those standards are in the same well yeah in mexico. That means in the same territory. You have two standards. Oh, that's so weird that means compatibility is a real issue then, or it could be a real issue.

Well, for example, uh when european models get here, it is a bit tricky because they they, even though it's 220, it's 220 50 hertz, which is something very technical. But it's just a problem and there's ways around it. That's just not practical um, a lot of the type out, because that's another part that we're starting to see prop up. We haven't seen it in public locations, but a lot of fleet fleet vehicles um for for a variety of purposes that get imported by the by the client um.

They have that connector and so that one is a bit tricky. But, for example, when you have gbt for level two, even though the connector is different electrically, it can work with the same 220 that we use here and you guys use over there. It's just a weird plug and then when it does get complicated is when you do level three, because that's that's a whole different thing: um yeah dc fast charging, so the only real dc fast charging. You guys we really have as a network that you can go like you know.

I can plan a route on. It is a supercharger network. You could count with the with the with my fingers how many uh universal dc charges we have and most most of the ones we have will be uh, uh, chatham or ccs 50 kilowatt, which is you know, has been been the lowest speed for high speed, yeah Um entry level dc charging and they're networked and most of them are uh uh. What's it called a demo pilot of sorts either from a brand or from a government entity.

Here udeke operates the two we have here in guadalajara because they bought a fleet. They bought 35 uh nissan leafs like three four years ago, as as as cars for for people at the university who they has universitated. It's a very large university. It's like 40, 000.

50, 000 students. I think i think i i i don't know. Don't quote me on that, but they they have an interesting program and they bought some of these. So the two, the two ccs charges you can go to hearing guadalajara, they're free, but there is, and they were bought with that purpose and you can't really travel in a non-tesla vehicle.

As of now um. I i have. I have people, i know who we also have the e-tron. We also have the i-pace.

We also have cars like this, which are great cars. I mean as a car, but even going to puerto vallarta, which is a very popular beach destination here in jalisco and um. You will probably make it you'll be running almost an empty when you get there and then it'll be very hard to charge and and if you do it's going to be a level two there's no level three and compare that to tesla where we they have in All major uh, all major roads and all major touristy areas in mexico. They have charges set up in the way where it's possible to go there, no problem.

It really speaks to to the commitment they have to to to this idea, to to ev mobility and and to mexico, because the other portion that's holding back universal charging in our country is just the way part of part of energy law and how it was partially Reformed then some stuff was missing and then we had a federal government change and then the new federal government has had really wacky ideas in terms of uh what they expect out of renewables and evs, and all these things um and in some instances either for political Gain or i don't know, they're really trying to undermine what little we've advanced in in these regards. You know um, so it's complicated currently, if, if you deploy uh uh a dc fast charging network, i mean everyone's had this problem, all the universal networks uh, they have an origin of either it's a legal settlement or some other backer that really really encourages them to To operate and be born and exist, then they're not profitable, and for tesla it's just like it's it's a tool for them. It allows them to sell cars to make it possible um. It's also it's more of.

I appreciate the network, but i think it's also more for them bragging rights they go like you know, i mean who could who? What other ev charging network? Could you drive from mexico city all the way to vancouver or things like this, or they also have now? The route there are several trans us routes and when they complete the veracruz charger they'll have the trans-mexico route, wow yeah i mean they could afford to not be profitable because well they have the largest fleet of electric vehicles in the world right. So that's why they have to exactly it's the only way that they can sell these cars and have them be compelling for all of us. It's very interesting world where we're we're steady and how and we are um following them like you know like they are there. They are the ones who can who can get uh the market to shift not just in consumer's heads, but also regulation and everything is required, and so so when one looks at charges, if you go to a universal charger scheme and you don't have any backing either From government or corporation or brands, it becomes very hard to do the investment, and then, on top of that which is comicion entity in mexico um they are the ones who would be like you know.

This is how permitting would work, and there is some framework for electrolynetas, which is what they call them uh. So, by the way, those don't speak spanish, because gasoline, dias or gasoline right gas station, those are gas stations, but this is what electro leaders electrolyneta. So they have, they have some framework for you to go like you know, i want to set up my electrolyneta, but the terms aren't aren't very flexible and they they they almost seem like they're, designed to block people from investing right now fully in this, the only One doing it in a substantial way in mexico is tesla and, and, like you said it's because they can afford to, they don't need to profit from these. From these uh points, i think that we have the same problems here.

I i've talked to several people now that are in your business right and it's the same thing. It's like you still can't make money using these so they're. You know they're they're, still too early we're trying to figure it out, but it's yeah it's complex and then on the other. On the other hand, what we were talking about uh when we first began our chat.

We have the point where we we are still in the final stages of this. You know remember the blu-ray hd dvd battle, what was gon na win so this this tends to happen in several in several categories or markets, and it seems that for evs we're we're in the final stages of knowing what's going to happen for north america, it's been Well defined, what's going to happen in europe in asia, even teslas for those markets have the common port um, but here yeah, but here it's still tbd to be determined and when we look at the market, we look at regulation and we look at market opportunities. We really can't afford to be all like uh like chargepoint right. They started 10 12 years ago.

They almost went bankrupt and then they got another infusion of capital, but they started way too early um and for all the things they learned of what works and what doesn't for a charging location and charging speed and and all these things and charging as a service. We we we still wan na. We i'm almost sure everything's gon na end up being a ccs north america for our market as well. Um yeah, but we still wan na wan na play it safe and and that's basically what we're rating legislation on one side that allows the sale of energy as a service through a charger which is still some.

They say it's allowed, but somewhat complicated. Why? Yes by now um and then on top of that being all like. What's up, what's the format, if i were to right now be all like? Well, i want to implement my own network with i don't know a dozen sites and and be able to service the largest customer base would be tesla and and not being able to service them. It'd be very hard to to do this yeah, but it's weird because you could only serve them in a level two format right.

You can't well, you can serve this yeah. You can. Can you own a supercharger like an independent charger? No right! You can't! You can't do that. They do have a program where i mean the way tesla gets.

The server to the supercharging locations is mostly a mystery to me. I just know it's a very it's a unique format. It's not like a regular. Oh you know.

Some some locations are but not like a regular. Oh i come at least you know they have some sort of agreement with the location, but in terms of like, for example, if you were a universal charger and you're like well, my biggest customer potential customer base would be people having a tesla um. You either have to have a chattamol adapter at every station, which also limits you to 50 kilo, which, for for bigger teslas, is well slow. It's low, i mean they're still going to be there for more than an hour, um, yeah and, and then we've seen abb with uh evgo.

They have a custom cable, that's like tesla compatible, but it's basically the chatham adapter uh built into a cable, okay, a cable. It's just as fast, and we are we are - i don't know if you've seen this on news but they're about to release a ccs1 to north america. Tesla adapter, so that'll give you around 120 150 kilo, oh ccs, to test yeah, okay, yeah, that's been spotted, it's been testing in korea, korea and japan have the same electrical standards as the us and mexico in canada, and so this is third party. There's someone else.

That's not through tesla. No, it's a tesla. It's a tesla adapter! Oh, it's a tesla, adapter, okay yeah! So it's going to be reliable, but it's going to be probably super expensive. Just like the chat, uh it'll be like 500 bucks.

I mean okay, well, yeah! That's expensive, it's expensive, but i mean it's it's within reason. If you need it, if you need it yeah and hopefully it won't be as chunky as a chatter mode. That is because that thing is massive. It's like a round thing, and this long it looks like the cable you know from the back to a future movie when they connected for the lightning.

Yes, i think i think it's even bigger than that and by the way that one was kind of a mystery right. We don't know who bought it who owned it. I never seen one like i've always seen just pictures of it and right like it wasn't. I don't think it was a success.

Like people didn't buy that thing, i guess, because we don't need it here in the states it was yeah. It was kind of like a weird. I have one like chad mo adapter. I have one you have one: okay, you're, probably the only person.

I know that owns one yeah and we have like, like less than 10 chatamo stations in all mexico, but i need it for testing purposes. Okay, um. It was expensive right that original yeah. It was six hundred dollars.

Okay, yeah! I guess it's not that bad! I remember thinking like man, that's for a cable who is going to buy it. The thing is, it has a controller inside and it has firmware. I mean it's, not just the cable adapter, it's not easy. It has to convert one format to another, so you basically have to have the electronics that were inside of a chat mode compatible into this portable unit thing exactly once this plays out because the the we go like well, if there is no official num and we Have all these charging standards for level two, and then we have all these considerations for level three, because it's a larger investment, then there's no real way to to right now: um monetize or basically just subsidize this investment, we're kind of in a limbo and then on Top of that, we have what i consider a risk: the the chinese companies trying to flood the market with their connector and trying to convert this market into their connector and they yeah it's a whole thing.

Well, i mean they. They pose a real threat right because there's a lot of manufacturers and they have cars that are, i think, they're lower price vehicles coming out of china right. So i think they're compatible they're, i'm all for all types of electric vehicles. I have no quarrel with with chinese goods everything's made in china.

The thing here is the fragmentation of the market. They're, just gon na make the conversation harder for everyone trying to get into it. Both operators cpos integrators and just someone who wants a car yeah and - and it's like every if, if i could have a dollar for every time, i've had the conversation. Why does tesla use this connector and blah blah blah and you go like well, there's there's technical considerations, but it's mostly a market thing and then there's there's a whole conversation around it and they just go like oh.

I wish it was this one connector and i mean no one knows exactly why i guess outside tesla, but for for there must be a reason i have. I had an understanding. The tesla north american connector could do dc fast much higher than the ccs standard, because it's it it came out before that at the time. I think it's everything i think is the fact that chatimo and ccs combos are just not sleek they're they're, big they're, bulky they're.

I know their their designs are optimized for compatibility right across a varied number of vehicles and designs and stuff where tesla doesn't have to do that. Tesla's, you know they're built the same. They know what they're going into the length of the cable is the same. They're super short: you because they know what the car looks like and yeah now could every other manufacturer yeah.

You know because does it work, because, obviously that connector works, i mean we're seeing you know, speeds of up to 200 kilowatts on that little connector right and it's nice and sleek and small and you're like it works. Why isn't everyone else doing their connectors to sleek? Is that it's like, i think it's, because it's not optimized for compatibility and well it's it's a thing. It's a thing, but it also, i guess, depends on my personal theory. I have no way to substantiate this.

Is it's a whole market thing where they go like? We know um because of what we want to do and the amount of cars you want to push out and the type of ecosystem we need to generate over the next 10 15 years to have a fighting chance. We first need to do this thing. That's for us, and then we might standardize - and it's mostly for north america because of the amount of cars that are rolling in north america. Europe and asia has a more healthy mix of brands.

Yeah yeah, and i think part of it, is that there could be just a pure technical reason. It goes like no, it's this technical thing but well, like i said i don't think it's just pure technical. I think it's also design wise right. They have a very, very like strict, aesthetic, the end user experience.

It's a thing too, and and like none other i mean i've tried, electrify america, i've tried the charge point once i've tried, the eevee go ones and it takes like 10 minutes to get the charge going, especially because you got ta like who owns this, who, how Do i want to pay it? You know yeah, how does you know the yeah the whole thing right, where tesla's such a seamless, you plug it in it's, got your information. It's just charging. It's just going. You don't have much control of how fast you want to charge anything, that's just the system.

Just you know. Does this thing and for the most part it's pretty fast, um yeah yeah, it's interesting and he said that he's open to other manufacturers. Opening that system right. I don't think nobody there's no takers, i don't think anybody else is they're all either joining ccs combo right.

I think i i'm not entirely sure i mean once again, that's information. Only tesla would have we're external contractors and very limited what i can share and even then i don't know um, but i i'd imagine they. They have a plan. These aren't people that don't have a plan, they have a plan, yeah and - and i think it's playing out nicely um but we'll see we'll see the the cyber truck uh as pickup trucks here in mexico are very popular, just like in the u.s there's.

So many people waiting for one, but that thing is going to have a massive battery. I mean we're going to need, probably do i know, do we know the size? We don't right. Well, just extrapolating numbers based on like what what mileage you can do and stuff yeah the ribbon is coming out and that has ccs combo. It's got up to 180 kilo an hour battery, so yeah exactly that's almost 200 kilowatts.

It's a massive battery! It's a massive battery, so so it's going to be something around that number. Between 150 and 200, some people say even 250 kilowatt um. I think that's a bit too much. I don't know they extrapolate all that from doing like you know.

If this current mass weight and battery can do this, not at the prices that he's saying also too right like that one, well, it's a real steal for the price. I mean it's look at yeah, it's vaporware at this point. It doesn't exist. It's he's got plans.

He could do it exactly. I don't know if he could do it. I mean he. I don't even know if those orders are real right.

Like i don't know, if a quarter million people would buy that car um, so he's got some info there and then he's gon na use that input to then make the real product and the real product's not going to be the thing that he presented. Obviously, because then that thing doesn't he can't even exist in most markets? It's illegal, it doesn't need standards, it doesn't. You know what i mean so even if it just if it just did the things on paper and look entirely different, still a very compelling product. Yeah um but yeah.

I think i think what we'll see because like, for example, when you set up level two charging at homes here we're supposed to not go over 32 amps or 7 kilowatts as their max peak rate. When you know, when you down rate them, for example, a wall box connector or what's it called the evbox connector, we are suppliers and we are the official supplier for evbox in mexico uh. We saw your interview a couple of weeks ago, yeah yeah, they're, great people to work with um and basically basically, it's it's interesting, because if you want to go higher higher, if you want to go, the max you could go is 11 kilowatts, which is like 48 Amp, you have to set up a separate meter in mexico to have a the ability to pull that much from the grid and b you get like a special rate which is not cheaper. It's just.

It doesn't go into the whole subsidy scheme for power pricing in mexico in mexico for for some certain amount of power, consumption and some zones in mexico, they get a certain amount of subsidy within the cost of power, and it ends working out because if you were To add your house consumption to your ev consumption for many people, they would lose that subsidy because they become high consumption clients but uh. What i tell always people when i talk to people from cfa, i go like you make us. Do this whole complicated thing where we do a second meter, a second connection to the power grid, and this whole second thing not to mention the paperwork which is horrible, where, when your digital meters could just use, can bus to talk over the same copper to the To them to the car charger and be like this amount build it differently. You know this power could amount to build differently, but no they make you do this entirely separate thing.

Instead of modifying their billing system wow, but i mean like they say in mexico - yeah be worse, it'd, be worse to not have uh a policy on around how yeah how to do that! And it's because there's not it's not volume right. These customers, it's not like! They have a ton of that stuff happening that it's being the uh inefficiencies of that process. It's it's! It's not hurting them yet so as soon as it does as soon as you hit critical mass. I think then, eventually they'll change that, hopefully exactly because we have several customers who go like you know.

I want the higher speed. I want the better price, but i live. For example, in an apartment complex and the the metering bank is set, you really can't add to it. Okay, oh wow, that would be yeah.

That's uh! That's that's something that we don't have to go through here like here. We're we're fine, you know most of the most of our uh homes and buildings could easily provide up to 22 kilowatts right, so it's usually older homes, 100 amps at a split face or now 200 most of the newer buildings i think than the newest code. I think it's 200, you know at split phase, so yeah yeah yeah no here here we have that growing pain yet to overcome, because our grits were never scaled to that size because we don't heat, we don't cool. So it's part of that and then the other part of that is even if everyone could afford to have a second meter enable viable.

You can't have everyone just pulling power at the same time, so there has to be some sort of load balancing scheme um either implemented by the utility or by the brand, especially in apartment. Buildings. Evbox makes units that make this possible and we we are now getting to the point even here in mexico, where we go like the first two or three people in that building to get a ev. You know they'll get their own meter or we're gon na.

We. We tie off the same meter, they have for the apartment um most of the time, but three vehicles onwards. You can't do that, like you, you've you've, you've uh exhausted the available extra uh slack. You had uh in the transformer of that building and all these things um, so we go like well, we could put up six charges and then themselves they could negotiate.

You know what speed's gon na happen and your cars will be charged in the morning. It's just gon na happen in this organized manner, so the speed is going to be relative to how many of the charges are being on. Are you charging yeah? We go like you know. You have a max max amount.

You know you can demand from the from the transformer you set up a a larger circuit, but even if it's a 100 200 amp circuit and you have six evs charging from it, you still need to balance it out. Yeah wow, so you find out that, like there's, not a lot of headroom in these transformers that you usually are using no uh, unlike unlike use us building code, we we build pretty much right up to the line yeah right up to the line like cfe here. Like tells you, whatever rating you, can max load it to 85 of that rating, which is somewhat typical, but then you get to the site and you survey, then it's running at 85, already yeah yeah wow. Sometimes sometimes you have to get creative and like either really derate it or yeah or in some cases just be like you.

We really can't do it not safely wow yeah. So those are challenges. Yeah that you guys have because see. The thing is that people don't get is that these cars they're sucking so much energy.

I mean you're like all the energy that your house is using all day. You know that's what you're doing in an hour or could be doing in an hour into these vehicles. Right so so they're super power hungry and having one or two: that's where we're at right. Now, it's fine you'll take the extra little.

You know head room that they'll have right there, but it's going to become a real, real problem and i know eventually, as they start, you know becoming more common and stuff they'll start replacing those transformers and start giving you head rooms and yeah and all the little Little grids right and the little little sections of the grid and it'll be the problem will go away, but it's going to take some time. I i know some of that equipment. Is there for 50 years right, it's it's it's! This is stuff that it's made and engineered to be there for a long time. You.